And I thought, what if the Nazi doctors had granted your father a living death simply by making him a guinea pig for their experiments.
Somebody said, "Of course Narayan Modi had the right ideas, those Muslims need to be shown their place in India."
And I thought what if it had been your daughter who was raped by neighbours, who had known you for all your life, and they ripped the foetus of your unborn grand-child from her body.
Somebody argued that Osama bin Laden was justified in attacking the symbol of capitalist power and was only retaliating for the US actions in the first gulf war.
And I thought what if you'd spent endless nights watching your mother crying her heart out because she didn't know if her son was dead, and then you heard later that your brother jumped from his svelte office on the hundredth floor, preferring that to burning in the flames engulfing the WTC.
Somebody accused the writer of this article of narrowmindedness and communal feelings and fascist ideas.
And I remembered the moment I heard of the Delhi blasts. Remembered how it had felt when I desperately dialed Delhi numbers. How it felt listening to the phone ringing on and on. The relief of hearing a simple hello. And I wondered about those people who kept dialing through the night and got no response.
I don't want you to tell me that the reply to violence should not be violence.
I don't want you to jump to the conclusion that I am a fervent believer in communalism.
I do not believe that the country a terrorist is born in should be blamed for his actions. I do not believe that all perpetrators of violence are prompted in their acts by their religious beliefs. If a Muslim raped a Hindu in Kashmir, I would not vent my anger on my nephew because he is a Muslim. If an American Christian bombed a Redcross warehouse in Afghanisthan I would not go out and scream at my friends who have taken me to church to attend mass on Christmas day. If a member of the RSS killed a defenceless Muslim shopkeeper in Gujarat I would not blame every person I see when I step into a temple.
This post made me think deeply, about how we react to situations that do not directly affect us. How flippantly we preach world peace and non-violence to someone just because he hopes "we catch them bastards who turned off all the lights of Diwali in Delhi and give them the "Ashfaq"ing of their lives."
If you do not believe that every individual who has perpetrated a crime against another human being deserves his just retribution;
I ask you to imagine your parent dying in a blast.
I ask you to imagine your child being subjected to surgery without the benefit of anesthesia in a medical experiment and being left grotesquely deformed.
I ask you to imagine the woman you love being raped, the man you love being torn to pieces.
And if you do believe that the individuals who are capable of such acts should not be tortured to a slow death, may I be forgiven for hoping every one of the atrocities I have mentioned in this post might happen to the person you love the most, that you may be tested in the forgiveness you preach to others.
40 comments:
Babelfish,
Very nice post. The principle is simple:" We should only punish those responsible and not the wider body to which the criminals belong". But what makes me hot under the collar is when I see a lot of these genteel liberals asking us to bear hug the *actual* perpetrators.
Wonderful
quite. the problem with my post (perhaps) was that some people either got one part and (deliberately?) didn't get the other. so i was cast alternately in the role of the empty, shallow "world peace" type people and a insensitive woman rooting for the worst violent retribution.
i'm thinking of updating my post with some stuff i say in the comment section, perhaps that'll make it clearer.
i like this post a lot, chiefly for your clarity of vision. you know what your stand on the matter is, which is more than i can say for myself. it's very easy, isn't it, to condem violence in others, but wait till your dog is run over, and then we'll see...
I agree with GB- the perpetrators of these crimes deserve no bear-hugs, nor do their communities deserve vilification. Thats what I can come out with from your post.
And oh- harsh in the ending, no, babel? very, actually. Must pristine principles be believed only after the worst of tests, like you hope for? In a world overflowing with people who positively believe in mass hate and violence, why scoff at those whose principles are the opposite merely because they are not proven?
Violent retribution (or revenge) is as much an impossibility as is forgiveness. Put a gun in your hand and stand in front of a terrorist and think- will you pull the trigger (this to someone who does not prescribe to unqualified non-violence).
I wish for clear punishment, but not for slow cruel torture and if, heaven forbid, I am one day faced with this situation, god help me if I think otherwise.
addendum:
before dramatically and emotively condoning violent and extreme desires from those affected by these heinous acts, stop and think that these are the very basis of larger acts of violence. Revenge- where does it end? Your answers to the first four people in you post lead me to say:
well, what if? is it is ok for those affected by those acts to want violent unpalatable death in return? if so...where does it stop? Who is to say?
Who is to say that a violent reaction to these tragedies is what leads a man on the path to terrorism in the first place? Or many of them, at least.
(i know this is simplistic, but i hope you get my drift)
very nice post. It is getting increasingly difficult for people to differentiate between the actual perpetrators of a crime and innocent members of the criminal's community at large. While its terrible to condemn all Muslims for the actions of a few terrorists/dons etc, its equally unacceptable to say that the masterminds behind a bombing/massacre should be treated with mercy. He/she deserves no mercy..am totally with you, rimi and greatbong on that!
@vague: I agree with what you say.Unfortunately most people are unable to differentiate between the two. Its easy to sit at home, secure in the knowledge that our loved ones are safe, to actually lose someone close to you to mindless acts of terrorism is another story altogether. While Im not conding the "Muslims killed my son so kill ALL Muslims" feeling, I suppose its difficult to make that differentiation under those circumstances. How the world will learn to make that distinction is beyond me though.
"And if you do believe that the individuals who are capable of such acts should not be tortured to a slow death, may I be forgiven for hoping every one of the atrocities I have mentioned in this post might happen to the person you love the most, that you may be tested in the forgiveness you preach to others."
I don't
because i value life
not because i preach forgiveness
"And if you do believe that ... may I be forgiven for hoping every one of the atrocities I have mentioned in this post might happen to the person you love the most, that you may be tested in the forgiveness you preach to others."
u may not :)
u r wishing this on me. now, lets see, my most loved person would be my little baby sister, say she's raped or killed ... then i think of this and wish the same to you ... then ABC ur XYZ is killed then that persons kids come and get my kids (by that time i will have them, inshallah) and their brother or sister goes back to ur place for revenge ... and the saga goes on ... is that what you meant? just checking.
Came via rimi's blog and although I do not agree with your point of view I liked reading what you had to say and all the comments that followed. For one, you and some others know your mind, know exactly what you would do in a certain circumstance, and have no illusions about how this matter should end. And I admire such conviction. Me, on the other hand, have the same questions as Prerona and being the indecisive weak person that I am, have no cut and dried formula of what I would do if it were up to me to resolve the issue. Because I do not believe that getting an eye (or a hand or a foot for that matter) for an eye would stop these people in their tracks and make them fear the retribution and sing halleluiah.
And one other thing. " We should only punish those responsible and not the wider body to which the criminals belong". How do you propose to do that? By bombing a poverty stricken Afghanistan? Or waging a war on Iraq based on some self centered false pretext? But then, we are treading deep waters and I would rather not go there.
I say we take off, nuke them from the air. It's the only way to be sure.
GREATBONG and rimi : I am very greatful to both of you. More than I can express in a simple thanks. But here it is anyway, thank you.
And GB thanks for the vist, do keep coming :)
hdpal : I patted myself on the back, then went and read your blog and realized the comment meant nothing. I am clueless as to how you got here, but I hope you return, it’s always nice to see another commentor, if only of the present please type :D
vAgue : et tu bhegu!! I would stick my tongue out if this were not quite such a serious issue. As it is I am congratulating myself on having written a post which got you to write a comment longer than your usual posts. *sticks tongue out now*
But seriously, you’re right in saying , I wish for clear punishment, but not for slow cruel torture. I agree that my usual soap opera style narration might have obscured this crucial point. But of course I wouldn’t suggest you throw your father's murderer into a scorpion pit! Then again, I don’t suppose you’d suggest he should be sent to a remedial home and given proper psychiatric counselling to help him quell his violent urges.
satchisgod : loopholes is right actually. We could probably slip a blue whale (or someone as elephantine as me :D) through a hole that size. “Society” doesn’t have the right to take a life. I completely agree. Society after all doesn’t go through nine months before going into child-labour. But someday I’d like to introduce the writer of those tearful last lines to a woman who’s lost her baby because of a doctor’s malpractise. And on a different note, I suppose people who believe in such ideas would encourage indefinite suffering in a terminally ill patient rather than advocate euthanasia. Just wondered.
I’m glad for the visit and I do hope you come back *eeesh, just my luck that I should turn away first time readers with over-dramatic posts*
Ron : Tremendously grateful for the support. I don’t normally write such incisive/ concerned-about-the-state-of-the-world posts but I do, do sincerely hope you keep visiting :D
Preronadi : very rarely do I feel like calling a complete stranger didi, but you deserve that respect and were it not for the fact that you’re probably raging mad at me I’d hug you now. Please believe I would not wish such a thing on your baby sister. But listen to my story will you before you rush to wish things on me.
As I’ve mentioned time and again, my own sister’s getting married soon. But I know someone else, whom I love almost as much as I love my own Didi. She was sexually abused as a child. She might never marry or bear a child because of the scars of that experience. I have stood at the place where you imagined yourself. I have cried because I could do nothing and we live in a society where such people go unpunished. The man who violated her innocence and spoilt her life is now happily married himself. Preronadidi, tell me, what do you suggest I wish on him?
soumik : I’m sorry, the point of your comment eluded me thoroughly. I am not initiating a discursive argument on terrorism and all its aspects, I am not even suggesting we start a revolution against the People (note the capital) who are responsible for acts of terrorism. I am simply suggesting that every person who is capable of commiting an atrocity against human life or dignity should receive just punishment.
M (tread softly upon) : thank you for visiting and for leaving a comment. It saddens my heart that I am now about to tread on your feelings so heavily you might never come back. Would you believe me if I said, I am normally a charming writer and very sensitive to what others feel? *sigh*, I thought not
By bombing a poverty stricken Afghanistan? Or waging a war on Iraq based on some self centered false pretext?
I hope you haven’t somehow misunderstood me there. I have mentioned the Afghanistan bombing in my post as something I do not think is justified. Initiating a war against Iraq is as meaningless (and as politically motivated) as the usual calls for Jihaad. I repeat, punishing a community for the acts of an individual is as unpardonable as the original crimes of that individual. Dhanonjoy Chattejee rapes a 14 yr old girl and kills her, for that would the parents exact revenge on the entire community of bengalis? Or chatterjees? Or liftmen?
An eye for an eye you seem to say will not stop terrorism, *deep breath* and you are right. Such is human nature. But would you really want criminals to go unpunished? Then there’s nothing to stop me from hutning you down and killing you tomorrow because you disagreed with my convictions today.
someone somewhere : You value life? Indeed? One is charmed to hear it of course. Alas one must then point out that you do not really value the ones you love.
To All : At the cost of losing all my readers *sniff sniff* I must here declare that there seems to be absolutely nothing to stop me from become a terrorist.
1)Because there are so many people out there who are generous souls of forgiveness or who value the ethics governing an abstraction called life and hence will let me go scot free.
2)Because there are an equal number of people who will be so afraid of retribution that they will not strike me down, although I indiscriminately strike them down.
3)Because there are enough people who seriously adopt the ideal of turning the other cheek, because violence should not be replied with violence.
All of you who feel furious with me for mocking your beliefs, or for disagreeing with your altruistic statements (and that alas might include those whose blogs I have been reading for some months now and whom I care for genuinely) please, please don’t initiate a non-violent boycott of my blog. Just explain to me, what is your solution to violence?
And what is there to keep *me* from turning into a monster tomorrow and killing you?
abhimanyu : *psst* you say things like that and there'll be tons of people attacking you next...but thanks for visiting...turns on charming smile...do keep coming :)
babel, i took time to comment because i read through all the blog posts and linked pages, and in the end - i agree with you. am not in mood or spirit to logically explain my exact position, but just know that. i agree.
mandy : you don't know how much it means to me that you took the trouble to actually read through everything; thank you :)
Little one, I dunno what is right and wrong. I just know that a continuous chain of vengence will lead to noone winning. At some point someone has to let go. Trying to punish him, or hodling on the desire for his punishment, means in a way u are the one who is suffering. U are holding on to it. Still carrying it. Whereas he has left it behind. I believe we all suffer on our own for our actions. Let it go. If you can. I know its hard. I'm not trying to be blase abt your pain and anger.
Kichhu hobe na shudhu tor i koshto hobe. Amaake maik kor aaro bolbo :)
Lots of love.
PS: Will accept the hug as not mad. am too lazy to get too mad to often :)
*smiling at so much cute tongue-display (erm, ok that did not sound the way it was mean to)*
babel, you ask what is the non violent person's solution to violence.
I ask, what is yours?
the biggest reason you can become a terrorist is not because of the reasons you outlined, and not because there are others who are afraid of your retribution...it is because you are so drawn by retribution, by exacting revenge, yourself.
again, in the same vein as your comment, this is honest happy argument, take it as no more no less:) I must stop now....
I was simply being pretentiously referential and doing so with unforgivably bad timing. What I said is a famous FAMOUS quote from that great GREAT movie - Aliens.
ie. I am being steadfast in not hammering anyone in the face with my opinion just yet. No criticism directed at those who are, you understand.
it is amazing that the whole world has the perception that in both the world wars, only hitler's men committed atrocities. that war is fought by both sides, and that soldiers form either side kill and are killed.
with regards 9/11, all i would say is that there has to be a price to pay for policing a world that does not want to be policed.
if you havent yet seen fahrenheit 9/11 then you may want to check it out...
yay!! at least two of my favorite people aren't planning to boycott my overwhelmingly violent blog in future; hugs to both preronadi and vague :D
preronadidi : will mail you prolonged reply once I get over my own infinite laziness :D would have replied here only but since you reworked that comment thrice, I shall reply to much that you wrote and then deleted as being unfit for the public eye. Note : I think you're a darling :)
vague : naheee!! I the have been the misunderstood the! I am not about to become a terrorist, horrors, who would manage the comments section if I did that!! Just one last thing, *sigh* I'm not really propounding slow torture you know. I'm the one who hides her face in a pillow when the villain of a bally hindi movie is killed off too violently. But justice would be nice :)
Addendum : lovely comments you write :D
Abhimanyu : me ignorant *beeble* Haven't seen Aliens *mimble wimble* Butbutbut will you still keep visitng blog and making these wonderful *gush* and erudite comments if I promise to watch the movie asap and nod my head sagely to what you say *charming smile*
u take care, girl :)
um. erudite? I didnt say anything....except quote one of my favourite movies. So, terribly erudite as that statement is, its written by James Cameron.
But I'll visit ;)
btw, it is terrifying that there are people left on the planet who have not seen Aliens....
"How could they cut the power, man? They're animals!"
One of the most oft quoted and classic lines of dialogue in cinema history....ahhh, the good old days of sci fi horror...
forgive. i am old and i ramble
Thought provoking yet very touching.
I hear ya gurl.
value-ing life has nothing to do with loving the people close to you.
Its very easy to hate,to want revenge,to go out of the way to see that someone who has hurt someone you love get what he deserves.
but is it SO hard to understand that revenge, hate , all this is pointless and always was pointless.
suppose u get revenge on someone who has hurt the person you love the most.
What then?
do you think you'll be satisfied if that person dies a slow and painful death right in front of your eyes?
do u think that by getting revenge you'll actually be able to make anyone feel better?
"Hate spawns only more hate"
in the end you'll only be bringing more hatred into the world.
you won't be making anything better at all.
by killing the person u hate/despise their loved ones will start despising you.
and then if everybody thought that they should torture people to a slow and painful death, this would go on forever until everyone died thanks to hatred.
so may i please ask, what do you plan to accomplish by hating ???
A violent act in any form, shape or guise is to be condemned, not necessarily the rationale behind that act.
I did come back :))) And no you did not hurt my feelings. Like I said before somewhere everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone should have one.
I agree with you on punishing the individual and not the community. It is easy as far as the rapist goes. Do you think it is quite as easy as far as terrorism? I detest the oversimplification that has been going on as regards the terrorism situation. I too want a solution. More than you can imagine. And I also would want the perpetrators to be punished. All I was ever saying was the hatred that has been brewing and is being actively brewed among people in general. Hating and propagating hate is what I am against.
And for the record, I do believe you are a charming writer and a sensitive person.
krishanu : I wasn't talking about the atrocities of war. Have you read All Quiet on the Western Front? A soldier fights but he is not the one who comes up with the justification for war. Are you trying to say what Hitler or Osama did was justified? Nothing can justify or excuse the loss of innocent lives (that's all I'm ranting against)
preronadi : will get round to mailing soon :)
abhimanyu : does one say dada or uncle? mane I would not want to be disrespectful to one so senior
Is it any consolation if I've watched Aliens II, or would that leave you further terrified?
*sigh, and and I didn't believe them when they said No one expects the Spanish inquisition*
But rambling is much appreciated on my comments section at least one more on the hit-counter, oh frabjous day!!
karuna : thanks, feels good to be able to reach out :)
hdpal : Point appreciated more than nothing :D
m (tread softly upon) : I get your point about hate down with hate we say!! and thank you for being so nice :)
soumik : hmm, point received if not entirely agreed on :)
monku : girl, I agree, reality is one horror show...and thank you, for those very kind words :)
someone somewhere : Look, I've read and commented on your posts and I honestly think you're a very sensitive person.
One clarification, when I said slow,cruel torture I was probably being somewhat overcharged. I don't think I'd be able to torture anyone but I also do think that evil deserves retribution. There has to be justice in this world. A terrorist or a murderer or a rapist is someone who has no value for human life. How and why would you justify their living? I'm ranting against the illogical fallacies that rule this world. We avoid giving someone the death sentence, even if he has killed someone in the first place, because we don't want their children to hate/despise us. We don't want to continue a cycle of hate, but honestly do you suppose a child of a criminal knowing his father got away without valuing life would value life himself??
I wouldn't want to spread hate, I wouldn't want to commit a violent act. But there are those who do not value my or your respect for life. I am raging because while we advocate world peace they are continuing in their agenda of hate. How do you propose to stop that?
And I don't remember mentioning the word hate in my post. I haven't said I hate Osama bin Laden, or Narendra Modi or the man who might rape someone's sister. I've just said if they are people who have killed the innocent, why do you think they should live happily?
"And I don't remember mentioning the word hate in my post."
how can you wish a slow and painful death on a person without hating/despising him.
and as to everything else you've said
what is justice anyway?
when you can't justify a man killing/raping someone then how do you justify killing him,how can you you say he deserves death?
Aren't you going down to his level.
Aren't you becoming the very thing your fighting against......something that takes someone's life without regret?
I'm not saying that you yourself would want to commit a violent act OR harm anyone.
But as i said before,
by sentencing someone to death WHAT do you hope you'll bring?
will it bring peace?
will it bring happiness?
will it teach his child anything good.
will it stop those who are commiting such "atrocities" every single day?
what is justice anyway?
but instead if we forgive someone there is always hope that he may one day realize his mistake and actually regret it.People who kill without regrets kill because they don't realize what it is that they are actually doing.
It is upto us to make them realize this and to make them realize that life truly has a value, that love does exist in this world.
But it is NOT our right to take their life, for by taking their life we are just increasing the number of dead bodies,we aren't helping,we aren't trying to make anybody understand anything,but what we are telling them is that killing is justified, whether it is as a punishment or as a way to achieve something else.
sigh...
There are four Alien movies - Alien, Aliens (which is part 2), Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection (part 4). If you saw part 2 then you Have seen Aliens...
In which case, the fact that you dont remember the quote borders on blasphemy.
someone somewhere :1) Don't assume what I mean and do not presume to declare whom I hate.
2)Your entire argument is very suggestive of the one thing I mentioned in my post, and you *denied* in your first comment preaching forgiveness.
3)I repeat you *value life* so much that you forget the horror of suffering, pain. I'm sure you're one of the people who think a terminally ill patient should be kept alive against his wishes becaue it would be sinful to take his life.
3)I'm sorry I find your argument impossible to accept, in its insistence of life over everything that makes life meaningful. Life would be meaningless without justice. If we did not have a hope in our human existence of a shot at justice and a hope for truth, then we are no different from any animal in the jungle.
4)I think we're arguing at cross purposes. I shall continue to respect you for your opinions because I believe that every rational being deserves to hold his own opinion. Unfortunately I also think you're looking at life through rosy coloured glasses. Think of your most traumatic moment and then think of any one of the atrocities mentioned in my post. If you come anywhere close, please write a post on it. And then we shall continue this discussion. As of now, my blog needs to move on.
abhimanyu : gulp...umm...
*panic stricken moment*
I'm not such a movie buff actually.
there I've dug my blog's grave a little deeper!!
I can still flash mega charming smiles, and I can recognize not-obscure quotes from ghost busters (well, at least once on your last post)
erm...oook?!!
adroit : thanks for the info :D
momo : f*#@ it ok!!
Rant finished. Discussion closed.
And in case you were wondering the f word is *fish*, I don't run around hurling abuses and dogmatic comments at people whose company I normally enjoy.
damn, now I'm upset
I want to interject here to say that there is no reason for the word 'fuck' to be abusive or unacceptable in this context.
abhimanyu : interjection accepted.
momo : fine, you can take WTF to mean whatever you like.And while we're at it, why the fish are you so upset?And what system?You'd shake Narendra Modi by the hand would you now?
momo : That's brilliant!
*jolly well done young man*
Brilliant! Did not read comments as there were too many. I just have a few things to say on this matter.
These issues nothing new, I have read these kind of articles before but we live in a world of 'ignorance is bliss' (actually only I do), Its not that I am not aware of the above events, It just that we have too much in our own personal lives to get bogged down by how screwed up the world is.
The best thing to do is not preach anger. Which is exactly what the last few lines in your post said. I do not condemn the lines, You are entitled to your own opinions but the best way to spread peace is be peaceful. Do your part in this world and the rest will follow. There are sopme people that are naturally screwed up in the head (result of having a traumatic life) and will be evil/bad etc and the rest are all brainwashed so who is the loser?
Thing is, if u retaliate with violence (a la slow death) you're going down to their(evil bad guys) level. In the face of violence let serenity be the strenght.
sphinx : thanks for the comment..I have abjured all, including violence and anger for the sake of a half-boiled egg, as my above post will tell you :)
Post a Comment